BigTuna

Comprehensive Sit N Go Strategy

Other than playing tight early, and loosening up and getting more aggressive later, what sit n go strategy tips can you offer that would be most helpful to a brand new player? Are you a fan of the whole Kill Phil strategy of getting all your chips in preflop? Or do you prefer to do some limping preflop, hoping to hit a monster? Can a "comprehensive sit n go strategy" be written?

What elements would comprise a "comprehensive sit n go strategy"? I can think of a few:

Starting hand requirements
Bet sizing
Calculating fold equity
Keeping records
Taking notes on your opponents
Playing hands on the flop
Playing hands on the turn
Playing hands on the river

Another poker forum (Two Plus Two) used to have a complete sit n go strategy of sorts, but it was aimed at Party Poker's sit n go structure at the time. (This was back when you got 800 chips to start with. I think they changed that shortly before they stopped taking US-based players.)

I don't think my personal sit n go strategy is "comprehensive", but I only started keeping records 5 or 6 weeks ago. I've played in 81 sit n go's and my ROI is -19%. I have buddies who are better poker players than I am who tell me that I can't really judge from that small a sample size. I think they must be right, because 20 sit n go's back, I was at -33%, so I've obviously been on both losing and winning streaks.

Anyway, I'd love to see a discussion of whether or not a comprehensive sit n go strategy is even possible.

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Big Tuna

"To live only for some future goal is shallow. It's the sides of the mountain that sustain life, not the top." - Robert Pirsig

JAMOOL

I remember hearing that sit n' goes were a 'solved game' and that an optimal strategy exists. From what I have heard it involves a lot of shoving preflop at higher stakes.

You can either play tight or loose to start. Honestly I don't think most people look at your image or whatever so 'playing tight so you can bluff later', while it sounds like it makes sense, doesn't really work on most sit n' go players (at least, $30 and below). My strategy for the early rounds of a tournament is basically the same as my cash game strategy, EXCEPT my pf raises are usually bigger. Sometimes at the first level a 'standard' raise is 5-7x the BB. It kind of sucks getting AA early on, raising 3xBB and getting called by half the table. This is a really tough situation.

I guess the 'fun' part happens when the blinds go up to the point where you have less than 10x the BB. I guess it's been proven that at this point your best strategy is usually to go all in and try to pick up the blinds PF. If you do get something worth writing home about you can make a 'normal' raise but good players will pick up on that. You really really shouldn't limp unless you get a good situation to (like T9s on the button with at least one limper already, and you're too big stacked to really push). I played in a live tournament this week where the blinds were 300/600 and people with 4000 were limping. Needless to say I could go all in a lot and pick up lots of chips.

Now the money stages. The bubble is actually a really interesting part of the tournament. A lot of people just wanna cash because afterwards they see the rest as a freeroll. I guess that's kind of true, but really, you should be playing for first if possible. In the long run it's more profitable to want to take risks and play aggressive on the bubble because others are tighter. But, there are some situations that call for you to basically be a pussy, for example:

Top 3 pay
Big stack: 6000
Second big stack: 5000
You: 800
Small Stack: 600

Say blinds are 100/200. The big stacks will almost never eliminate each other. They will pick on the small stacks a lot, but the guy with 600 will blind out first. Therefore he has to gamble before you. Unless you get a great raising hand you should really fold most hands instead of moving all in on a big stack's big blind since he'll likely call you with anything but the bottom 10-15% of hands.

If you're big stack #1 you should be picking on big stack #2 a lot. If he is scared of the unlikely situation of getting 4th then he's not going to want to play a big pot with you. Even if you double him up, you're still in second place (of course, with a very small chance of getting 1st now, but still).

Once you're in the money - the other people will probably start playing loose because at this point they have their buy in back and will see the rest as a freeroll. In a way this is ok thinking - 3rd pays 2 buy ins more than the other places, and 2nd is only 1 buy in more than 3rd. But you shouldn't give up your stack on an iffy draw as people are so prone to do at this level.

Heads up - this is an interesting part. At a 10 man sitngo, you have to outlast 7 other players to get two buy ins. But when it's heads up, you only have to outlast one more to get an additional two. The difference is you have to do the dirty work yourself. My advice would be to go on Stars or FT and play a bunch of low limit heads up sit n goes. They're a lot of fun and you should learn a lot. When the blinds are high it's usually the most aggressive player who's going to win. If a player goes all in every hand and you're card dead, there's just nothing you can do to counteract this strategy. If the big blind is over 5% of the chips in play, let your opponent be the one who has to pick up the hand. The higher the blind, the less you should limp in from the button. If your opponent limps, stick in a huge raise UNLESS he raises from the button every other time. Some players HU when the blinds are big will raise all their hands EXCEPT the good ones. You can test this the first time by putting in a small raise (2.5x) and seeing what he does. If he folds, he's limping weak.

Hmmm. I know this is disjointed but I hope it helps.

puckhead23

As you've said, basic SNG strategy been covered in detail in many places, so I will not belabor those points. It is my observation that regardless of structure, I think the general truths of SNG strategy (playing tight earlier, utilizing blind stealing midgame to maintain stack, pushbot in end game) hold true. What changes is the timing of your actions.

There is more play in the Stars structure (deeper stacks in terms of starting # of BB, and time per round) than the old Party structure, but the strategy is the same. In the Party structure, you find yourself in midgame by level 3, while level 3 in the Stars structure is still early IMO since you still have around 30BB. Moreover, Party's structure was every 10 hands as opposed to 15 minutes on Stars, so the number of minutes it takes to arrive at different stages is shorter too.

sfustsh

Learn headsup.
Dominate headsup.
Win money.

EDIT: For low buyin SNGs, I usually consider myself a favorite unless I have <10BBs. Headsup has lower variance than the rest of the SNG. The key to HU on the end is stack management.

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johnny350h: that was in his range yes yes

BigTuna

A truly comprehensive sit n go strategy would definitely cover heads up play. Especially at the six person sit n go's. One of the Killer Poker books that was co-authored by Tony Guerrera covers heads up sit n go's in detail, but the section was pretty helpful even though I don't play a lot of headsup matches anymore. Because if you do well, you'll eventually need a strategy for heads up play.

I appreciate the input.

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Big Tuna

"To live only for some future goal is shallow. It's the sides of the mountain that sustain life, not the top." - Robert Pirsig