MewsicLovr

Discussed this one with Mirage and we both agree with the action up to the river. Then, we got to talking about what to do to a raise/shove. I say turbo call. He says bet 4/fold to shove is probably better, but if I can't fold then bet 5-6/call is better (to improve pot odds). I was just interested in what others thought.

Notice villain only has 60bb's to start. There is nothing noteworthy about him, typical loose-passive fish, but I don't have very many hands on him either.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $25
UTG: $24.55
MP: $15.10
CO: $23.35
BTN: $5.80
SB: $10.10

Pre-Flop: T 9 dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, MP calls $0.25, CO folds, BTN calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero checks

Flop: ($1) Q 2 J (4 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, MP calls $1, 2 folds

Turn: ($3) K (2 Players)
Hero bets $2, MP calls $2

River: ($7) 4 (2 Players)
Hero bets $5

sevens

I think mirage nailed it, but I look at it from a range standpoint, and not a pot odds standpoint. Is his shoving range anything other than a flush? If so, we should be more than happy to get it in here, and bet whatever amount will get the most, considering his calling range also. Is his shoving range just a flush? If so, then we should bet $4, fold to a shove, to get value from stuff like KT/KQ/KJ etc etc.

__________________
sevens' blog
The adventures of a micro-grinder! Updated 8/20 "Stake Update - Day 3"
The basics of a solid TAG Game strat video
"double gutshot" - twice as good as a single gutshot!

bigloser2448

This is a tough one furshur. When I have hands like this, it doesn't matter what I do, teh bastard's gonna flip the flush. I can tell you that I'd probably go the $4 route as well, but be totally tank to a shove anyway. Without any history on the guy I think I'd bet 4/fold at least until I've got a feeling for how the guy plays for a while. I think one of my biggest holes is stacking off against unknown villains too early in a round.

__________________
Check out Bigloser's Blog: The Genesis of a Micro-Grinder...

http://www.feltpoker.com/blogs/bigloser (updated 5/25/08 )

Ugignadl

OK, I'd bet a little less on the flop, and go a little less on the river. Fold to a shove, yes that sounds right. You really gotta be able to fold this.

__________________
I have been blogging. Last updated April 29th. http://www.feltpoker.com/blogs/ugignadl/

Mirage

I like the flop bet size myself, but I wouldn't always make the bet because it's a 4-way pot and your draw isn't very strong. If I do bet I bet $1, since if called in more than one spot I'm done unless I hit and it builds a bigger pot if I do hit, but with no overs and the flush draw possibly dirtying your outs I would usually c/c a small flop bet and c/f a missed turn. Rarely are they all gonna fold, and of your 8 outs, some might get you in trouble, and you're OOP.

However, good on ya looking for spots to take down these limped pots where you think you can. You get peeled on by all kinds of stupid backdoor draws, bottom pair, etc. all the time in limped pots so I usually pot it with mid pair + or a good draw. If you take down the pot that's great, if you get to showdown you are good a lot and if you can nail a draw it's disguised so that you will get value if they do wind up being strong.

As played, looks like he's got $11.85 behind and the pot's $7 on the river. That is a little awkward for sure. I bet $4 and fold to a shove because I don't think he ever shoves worse for value on this board and never shoves as a bluff in a limped pot after your continual show of strength - people aren't typically going to put you on a bluff yourself when you go ape shit OOP in a limped pot. If he had $9 or or less behind I would like a shove; you might narrow his calling range a bit, but you get extra value when called which should well more than compensate, and with eff stacks that shallow you'd be basically committed so this prevents him from winning extra when he has the flush. Being that he actually has nearly $12 left committing yourself with a near psb is bad since he likely only shoves the flush, and an overbet shove of this size narrows his calling range significantly more than if he had say $9 left. So I think your best EV is bet $4, fold to a shove. You can even bet $5 as you did if he's badly loose/passive and loves to show down, but you have to fold to a shove, pot odds be damned. I think betting $4 will get you a bit more action from his worst hands that have showdown value and you won't be so tempted to call a shove, but splitting hairs talking about a fish's calling range with certain bet sizes is a subjective exercise.