25NL: QQ on Axx 2 flush flop - line check

sevens · 07-19-2008, 10:13 AM

x-post from 2+2. It got some pretty good discussion with varied opinions there. Let's hear what feltpoker has to say!

I have no stats on the villain, but he pretty much insta-bet pot on the turn. In my experience, worse PPs would still check here, wanting a showdown because of the A. I don't know if he's aggressive or not, and is trying to push me off the type of hand that I have.

Also, checking behind on this flop is standard right? What's your play on the turn?

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP1: $35.60
Hero (MP2): $25.00
CO: $14.40
BTN: $23.35
SB: $18.25
BB: $29.80
UTG: $36.80
UTG+1: $9.70

Pre Flop: Hero is MP2 with Q

Q

1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 3 folds, BB calls $1, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.85) A

2

8

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($2.85) 4

(2 players)
BB bets $2.50, Hero?

sfustsh · 07-19-2008, 10:33 AM

Why check that flop? Represent that ace.

sevens · 07-19-2008, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfustsh

Why check that flop? Represent that ace.

Because I don't want to fold out hands I'm ahead of. The only hand he could have that I want FE against is KK. He's never folding Ax here, because people don't call raises with Ax to fold when they flop top pair.

<editted for OP>Other than "because I would c-bet that flop with air, I should do it with made hands too", I'm at a loss for a reason to bet here.

sfustsh · 07-19-2008, 10:42 AM

Yeah well see what happens when you tell them you don't have an ace.

I think that sort of logic really misses the point of the cbet. By not betting are you are essentially saying "I don't have an ace" because you would never check if you did have an ace. Now villain says "Well maybe 77 is good". Just bet the flop. If you get called you can probably assume to be beat, and you'll make fewer mistakes on later streets. Now you've set yourself up to make maximum mistakes.

Really you have no idea what he has now. He could have an ace, flush draw, middle pair, set, or he could even be floating you.

sevens · 07-19-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfustsh

Yeah well see what happens when you tell them you don't have an ace.

I think that sort of logic really misses the point of the cbet. By not betting are you are essentially saying "I don't have an ace" because you would never check if you did have an ace. Now villain says "Well maybe 77 is good". Just bet the flop. If you get called you can probably assume to be beat, and you'll make fewer mistakes on later streets. Now you've set yourself up to make maximum mistakes.

Really you have no idea what he has now. He could have an ace, flush draw, middle pair, set, or he could even be floating you.

Well I figured I wouldn't have much idea anyways, having no stats. I figured that betting and getting called would leave me in the same spot as checking and keeping the pot small. Looking back on the hand, if I check the flop I am at least obligated to call the turn.

sfustsh · 07-19-2008, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevens

Looking back on the hand, if I check the flop I am at least obligated to call the turn.

Yes probably.

Mirage · 07-19-2008, 01:35 PM

I mix it up between betting and checking back here. I would definitely call the turn bet, and usually a river bet if it comes, because I am a station.

I think there are merits to representing the A as well as just trying just to get to showdown, it mostly depends on if you think the villain is aggro enough to try to bluff you off when you show flop weakness. In position I would typically bet, as the aces in a cold caller's range are usually going to let you get to showdown pretty cheaply but you still get to charge to draw to the flush or trip 8's. If I do check the flop, it's usually against an aggro donk, and I'm usually calling him down unless the board 4-flushes or similar. It's fine to check back an ace here sometimes for balance as well vs a thinking villain as it can give you a little more credibility when you want to check back QQ or 98 or something here.

NeXtToNoTHiNG · 07-20-2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfustsh

Now villain says "Well maybe 77 is good".

I'd call that a pretty good result given that hero holds QQ.

Ugignadl · 07-20-2008, 06:04 PM

I always bet the flop here, FWIW.

07-19-2008, 10:13 AM	#1 (permalink)
sevens Grinder Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 805	25NL: QQ on Axx 2 flush flop - line check x-post from 2+2. It got some pretty good discussion with varied opinions there. Let's hear what feltpoker has to say! I have no stats on the villain, but he pretty much insta-bet pot on the turn. In my experience, worse PPs would still check here, wanting a showdown because of the A. I don't know if he's aggressive or not, and is trying to push me off the type of hand that I have. Also, checking behind on this flop is standard right? What's your play on the turn? Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com MP1: $35.60 Hero (MP2): $25.00 CO: $14.40 BTN: $23.35 SB: $18.25 BB: $29.80 UTG: $36.80 UTG+1: $9.70 Pre Flop: Hero is MP2 with Q Q 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.25, 3 folds, BB calls $1, 1 fold Flop: ($2.85) A 2 8 (2 players) BB checks, Hero checks Turn: ($2.85) 4 (2 players) BB bets $2.50, Hero? __________________ sevens' blog The adventures of a micro-grinder! Updated 8/20 "Stake Update - Day 3" The basics of a solid TAG Game strat video "double gutshot" - twice as good as a single gutshot!

07-19-2008, 10:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
sfustsh Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Rocking the micros Posts: 4,524	Why check that flop? Represent that ace. __________________ johnny350h: that was in his range yes yes

07-19-2008, 10:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
sfustsh Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Rocking the micros Posts: 4,524	Yeah well see what happens when you tell them you don't have an ace. I think that sort of logic really misses the point of the cbet. By not betting are you are essentially saying "I don't have an ace" because you would never check if you did have an ace. Now villain says "Well maybe 77 is good". Just bet the flop. If you get called you can probably assume to be beat, and you'll make fewer mistakes on later streets. Now you've set yourself up to make maximum mistakes. Really you have no idea what he has now. He could have an ace, flush draw, middle pair, set, or he could even be floating you. __________________ johnny350h: that was in his range yes yes

07-19-2008, 01:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mirage Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Raising donk bets Posts: 3,228	I mix it up between betting and checking back here. I would definitely call the turn bet, and usually a river bet if it comes, because I am a station. I think there are merits to representing the A as well as just trying just to get to showdown, it mostly depends on if you think the villain is aggro enough to try to bluff you off when you show flop weakness. In position I would typically bet, as the aces in a cold caller's range are usually going to let you get to showdown pretty cheaply but you still get to charge to draw to the flush or trip 8's. If I do check the flop, it's usually against an aggro donk, and I'm usually calling him down unless the board 4-flushes or similar. It's fine to check back an ace here sometimes for balance as well vs a thinking villain as it can give you a little more credibility when you want to check back QQ or 98 or something here. __________________ My Blog - Updated July 27th! johnny: poker is hand johnny: park johnny: omg Mirage: lol johnny: difficult

07-20-2008, 06:04 PM	#9 (permalink)
Ugignadl Drunken Aussie Join Date: May 2007 Location: Aussieland Posts: 7,674	I always bet the flop here, FWIW. __________________ I have been blogging. Last updated April 29th. http://www.feltpoker.com/blogs/ugignadl/

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