PoorManBilly

I'm trying to learn/play Omaha 8/b again. I love the game, but I seem to be all over the place. Way up, way down... folding for what seems like hundreds of hands only to have my A23x hand miss the flop and not quit get there by the river and some asshole pots it with a weak 2 pair. The other thing that drives me mad is say for example I have the nut high on the river but a busted low against 2 other players. I always try and bet the right amount to get both people to call with what I'm expecting is the nut low vs a weaker high or weaker low. The problem being, the shithead low stakers always bomb the pot with the nut low in this situation. They don't seem to understand the mutual benefit of keeping the 3rd player in so we can split up his money. It fucking drives me mad. I suppose there isn't shit to do about that, but nothing tilts me more than that.

So here are the problems I'm having... hopefully someone has some thoughts.

1: Knowing when my non-nut high hand is good. Obviously this is probably hard for everyone, but I see guys playing and winning with a weak 2 pair, bottom set, etc all the time. It makes me gag, but I always feel like I'm losing out on at least 1/2 the pot at then end when someone bets and I'm not sure where I'm at.

2: Putting someone on a hand. Again, this relates to #1 and is probably hard for everyone, but I'm not even sure where to start in Omaha. I've gotten pretty good at guessing someone's hand in hold 'em, but I'm not sure where to even begin here.

3: Betting preflop. What hands, what position, 3-betting, etc....

4: C-betting... again, why, when, where, etc....

5: Dealing with the constant folding and swings. I feel like you fold so many more hands in Omaha and the game plays slow that I need to play about double the amount of tables I do in hold 'em to not get bored or lazy. So if I was used to 4-tabling hold 'em, I'd probably be about right at 8 tables of Omaha 8/b. I actually just ordered a second monitor, so maybe that will help with this.

sfustsh

Defer to merv for this thread =D

__________________
Carrera: fuck you

as just above it means big bet.
so again fuck off

Biggle10

I'm going to give this a try. One thing I've heard from one pro via a podcast regarding the differences between LO8 and PLO8: In LO8, you want the low and try to back into the high. In PLO8, you want the high with the low redraw. Now, I haven't played much PLO8 but this seems reasonable as fairly frequently you won't flop the nut low and people can bet you out of it. So there is probably more value in big wraps like TJQK and the like. On to you specific questions:

Small Print: My omaha/8 game is mariginal.

PoorManBilly

Hmmm... well, my default play depending on position is to raise preflop; not to chase people out, but to get more money in the pot. No one ever folds preflop, so this way, at least you have some money to win and then if you hit, you can c-bet. No one folds on the flop either. It's insane.

sfustsh

I disagree that hand reading isn't as important as hold em. It's just as important, there's just not quite as much deception involved.

__________________
Carrera: fuck you

as just above it means big bet.
so again fuck off

Biggle10

I will agree with this, and is probably what I meant.

caffiend

Never! Really, you should be drawing at the entire pot which avoids this sort of fiasco. That being said you can occasionally give someone a hand. One example is people who play wheel cards and chase a bare low. If they suddenly bet on a low river, it's a bit easier to look them up with a busted set. In wild games you also find some people who like their hands doooubbbblleeeee soooooted which makes folding to a possible flush a no brainer.

Well, in crazy games you will be guessing. That can be unnerving if you're used to Hold'em. On the other hand, most crappy players play a lot of Ace/wheel combinations. If you know someone's got A2-A4 then you know half his hole cards, which is fairly significant. (How often in Hold'em would you kill to know just one of your opponents hole cards?)

Never. I know that's "wrong" and I know why it's wrong, yet it's a system that works for me. There are two primary reasons to raise in any flavor of Omaha. Obviously, with that many hands out there you want to narrow the field. Your first two problems are hand reading, so you're keenly aware of how forcing people to play reasonable holdings helps. I find that this is a hopeless endevor in some games though.

The second reason is that you really want people to pass, again limiting the field. By raising in the back to punish limpers you can generally play stronger hands in superior position. I find that this fine concept is also often derailed by morons. If they play shitty cards now, you probably won't be able to discourage them from doing it later. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't do it to discourage good players from limping, just that it's not effective against bad players.

You notice that raising for value isn't putting in an appearance here. My biggest issue is that you lose most of that value by telegraphing your hand. If I raised preflop you know I'm drawing to the nut low or whole pot. That makes it pretty easy for you to get the hell out of the way or push me around if things don't come out well. I'd definately bump up my good hands in a game where I was raising for the previous reasons, but I tend not to do it in any game where I'm only raising for value.

To win the pot, obviously. Usually on the flop. Best when the flop conatins two high cards. High cards are nice, because you'll often drive out a bare low draw. Two high cards are nice because it severly limits the draws A2xx A3xx can have. (You don't really want to be too cute with KJT on the board against a guy who'll play A2xx. Duh.) Two high cards are also nice because it means one low card. If you get called you may end up with a backdoor redraw if another baby comes.

Speaking of which, two high and three to your flush is pretty nice. With backdoor low and flush draws you've got a real chance of redrawing on a pest. If you brick on the turn you can check behind for the free river or abandon ship when faced with a bet.

It does play slower, primarily because almost every hand goes to the river. One bright side to that is you see a lot more from people, as I said above. It's nice to know someone will play A49K. Fairly often in Hold'em games I'll see lots of pots taken down before the end, which tells you little about your opponents starting hands. In Omaha you'll see people lose with the fourth nuts and shitty lows all the time. Normally a naked A2 is pretty marginal, but it's a real powerhouse again someone who plays naked A5.

Even more valuable, with lots of showdowns you get to see what people raise with. Again, going back to what I said before, that can be some valuable information. Suppose a guy will only play hands containing an Ace and needs three wheel cards to raise. Well shit, you know 75% of his hand. Obviously if he raised he has something like A24x.

Far better for you though is knowing that if he didn't raise he does not have A24x. If you're in an unraised pot with him how much backup does he have for his low? None. This is spectacuarly effective against people who always raise A2xx, because in every unraised pot without a deuce on the board you know they aren't drawing to the nut low.

caffiend

There's minimal value in a big wrap (against bad players) because any board you connect with presents no low draw. While I can see where he's coming from, I submit that a better suggestion for this conversation is that it the big bet game it's more important to draw to scoops.

In a limit game you can often find profitable situations playing for half the pot against multiple opponents. In fact the high is very desirable there because it's less likely to get quartered. Clearly though, against solid players a lot of the game will revolve around two nut lows. In that case it's to your advantage to have big equity in the high half.

In a big bet game you're pretty likely to be facing one opponent, multiple people would suggest multiple nuts. Clearly then you want to lock up the high half, because it's most likely multiple nuts are nut lows. Once again though, in the case of solid players heads up you're looking for solid equity in the half your opponent doesn't have a lock on. I don't think said pro really cries in his beer when he flops the nut low with a nut flush draw or some kind of crazy low wrap.

sfustsh

I guess I'll just say a little something about raising preflop:

In hold em, certain hands play better HU while others play well in a family pot. TT is a great headsup hand, but suffers horribly in larger pots. 56s, on the other hand, has terrible headsup value but great value in big pots. In omaha there are certain hands that perform similarly.

AAHH is a good headsup hand, but 3456 is a better family pot hand.

As always, think about the type of hands you can make. Straights and flushes are strong hands, but they require you to draw. So don't force people out if they will improve your drawing odds.

__________________
Carrera: fuck you

as just above it means big bet.
so again fuck off

PoorManBilly

A quick follow up to this and then hopefully I'll get around to the rest of posts in this thread. I know what you mean by saying not to c-bet. That term seems like it has gotten a little muddied. Generally, I think of a c-bet as raising preflop, missing the flop, and then betting out again if checked to you. I agree you shouldn't c-bet in this case. However, if you pick up a good draw, but not a made hand, obviously you'll bet at the pot which is more of a semi-bluff in your terms, but looks like a c-bet to your opponents. So the real question I was trying to ask when I say 'When do you c-bet', should really be more 'What hands should you bet at on the flop if you took the lead preflop?' You'll do the big combo draws, but what about the high only, low only, top two pair, etc.... I think caffiend sorta answered what I was getting at, but I wasn't at all clear.