Flopped set of Kings surrounded by Clubs!!!

bigloser2448 · 11-28-2007, 10:41 AM

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.04 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 10 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Pre-Flop: :Kd :Ah dealt to Hero ()
olygene folds, puan29 calls, Weking calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, puan29 calls, Weking folds

Flop: (6.5 SB) :Kc :2c :Kh (2 Players)
puan29 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (3.25 BB) :Kc :2c :Kh [ :9c ] (2 Players)
puan29 bets, Hero calls

River: (5.25 BB) :Kc :2c :Kh :9c [ :4c ] (2 Players)
puan29 bets, Hero folds

Results: 5.25 BB Pot (0.25 BB Rake)
puan29 mucked and WON 5 BB (+3 BB NET)

I know I totally botched this hand, but the clubs got me purplexed after the turn. I checked the flop because I didn't see the sense in betting since this table was full of calling stations, (I mean every hand went to the showdown, and most with 3 or 4 players still in it). I'm sure he just would have called and what info would that give me? (except perhaps a bigger pot if no more clubs come?) & would it tell me if he raised?(yeah I'm even more clueless in limit than NL, if that's possible).

By the time the river came, did I have a choice? Is he going to bet without any club? What are the chances of him having the case King? I guess the pot odds said I shoulda called, but I figured if nothing else, I could use this newly enforced (I can fold a hand) image in the future.

Is the right play in this case to RAISE RAISE RAISE all day and twice on Sunday? Now that I think about it, who says he had a high club? He could have been betting the turn in hopes to get me off a low flush draw when he made a weak flush already. Yeah I think it just came to me. I should of raised until my clicker finger hurt, right??? :banghead:

puckhead23 · 11-28-2007, 11:39 AM

It is rarely a good idea to slowplay trips, especially with a FD on the board. You need to bet the flop here, and I think you know that based on your post-hand discussion. The worst thing that can happen to you is he folds, and you take down a small pot. As played, you've got to call the turn having outs to boat/quads. I think your fold is good given four clubs on board.

bigloser2448 · 11-28-2007, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckhead23

It is rarely a good idea to slowplay trips, especially with a FD on the board. You need to bet the flop here, and I think you know that based on your post-hand discussion. The worst thing that can happen to you is he folds, and you take down a small pot. As played, you've got to call the turn having outs to boat/quads. I think your fold is good given four clubs on board.

How does the way to play this hand differ from that of NL? Or does it? I've noticed that people seem much more willing to pay (the small price) to draw to a hand. What I mean is, even betting in LHE is kinda like slow playing anyway if nobody raises, isn't it? I know (I think) if I had the ace or even queen maybe, of clubs, I'd probably call my piddly .02 cent bets to see if I get there. Isn't that the HLE way?

puckhead23 · 11-28-2007, 12:50 PM

You want them to pay for their draw, that's where your profit is. I want that to happen if this is a LHE or a NLHE hand. In NL, I can make Villain's draw more pricey versus limit, where I cannot. This is why limit is more a game of draws than NL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLoser2448

What I mean is, even betting in LHE is kinda like slow playing anyway if nobody raises, isn't it?

I'm not 100% sure what this means, but the difference between betting and not is making your opponent pay for his draw versus giving him his draw for free. Even if he makes his draw, you have a nice redraw. You want to get your money in while you have maximum pot equity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLoser2448

I know (I think) if I had the ace or even queen maybe, of clubs, I'd probably call my piddly .02 cent bets to see if I get there. Isn't that the HLE way?

It depends how much is in the pot. If there is only 4 cents in a pot, I'm not calling 2 cents to make my flush draw. Two cents is only piddly in its buying power. Two cents is one big bet in this scenario. I don't like wasting big bets regardless of their monetary size. On the other hand, if the pot is 12 cents, I am calling because I have sufficient equity (5:1 odds to make FD on one street). Your job is to make the most +EV move you can.

However, you should not consider $0.02 piddly, it is 1 big bet. You can really pwn these stakes because the majority of them don't mind calling "because it's two cents". Your mentality should differ from your opponents in this regard. We are not going to throw away an entire big bet, our opponent must earn it. Whether it's $0.02 or $200, our mentality must be the same.

bigloser2448 · 11-28-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckhead23

You want them to pay for their draw, that's where your profit is. I want that to happen if this is a LHE or a NLHE hand. In NL, I can make Villain's draw more pricey versus limit, where I cannot. This is why limit is more a game of draws than NL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLoser2448

What I mean is, even betting in LHE is kinda like slow playing anyway if nobody raises, isn't it?

I'm not 100% sure what this means, but the difference between betting and not is making your opponent pay for his draw versus giving him his draw for free. Even if he makes his draw, you have a nice redraw. You want to get your money in while you have maximum pot equity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLoser2448

I know (I think) if I had the ace or even queen maybe, of clubs, I'd probably call my piddly .02 cent bets to see if I get there. Isn't that the HLE way?

It depends how much is in the pot. If there is only 4 cents in a pot, I'm not calling 2 cents to make my flush draw. Two cents is only piddly in its buying power. Two cents is one big bet in this scenario. I don't like wasting big bets regardless of their monetary size. On the other hand, if the pot is 12 cents, I am calling because I have sufficient equity (5:1 odds to make FD on one street). Your job is to make the most +EV move you can.

However, you should not consider $0.02 piddly, it is 1 big bet. You can really pwn these stakes because the majority of them don't mind calling "because it's two cents". Your mentality should differ from your opponents in this regard. We are not going to throw away an entire big bet, our opponent must earn it. Whether it's $0.02 or $200, our mentality must be the same.

Understood.
Thanks for the lesson.

Biggle10 · 11-28-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigloser2448

I checked the flop because I didn't see the sense in betting since this table was full of calling stations,

Because you have the best hand 95% of the time here. Get money into the pot.

Snickers99 · 11-28-2007, 06:43 PM

As others have said, bet the flop because you probably have the best hand and you want the drawers to pay. Limit is about pushing those tiny edges you have. Get it in when you think you're good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigloser2448

I checked the flop because I didn't see the sense in betting since this table was full of calling stations...

This is another reason to bet the flop. If you think you're ahead and you know they're going to call, then bet. You may lose a couple hands to suck outs, but those hands you do win will be huge and more than make up for it.

And, as Puckhead said, stop thinking of it as .02/.04. They're Blinds. :wink:

I think everyone here will agree...NL and Limit are two totally different games that you have to approach differently.

One more thing...listen to Biggle. He's the Limit expert around here!

sfustsh · 11-28-2007, 10:05 PM

Cap flop, raise/call turn, call river.

Never fold.

sfustsh · 11-28-2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigloser2448

I checked the flop because I didn't see the sense in betting since this table was full of calling stations,

This doesn't make ANY sense.

Mirage · 11-29-2007, 09:05 AM

Well for starters, I'd... oh wait, limit. Nvm. :lol:

11-28-2007, 10:41 AM	#1 (permalink)
bigloser2448 Whale Hunter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bakersfield Posts: 2,861	Flopped set of Kings surrounded by Clubs!!! Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.04 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 10 Players LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter Pre-Flop: :Kd :Ah dealt to Hero () olygene folds, puan29 calls, Weking calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, puan29 calls, Weking folds Flop: (6.5 SB) :Kc :2c :Kh (2 Players) puan29 checks, Hero checks Turn: (3.25 BB) :Kc :2c :Kh [ :9c ] (2 Players) puan29 bets, Hero calls River: (5.25 BB) :Kc :2c :Kh :9c [ :4c ] (2 Players) puan29 bets, Hero folds Results: 5.25 BB Pot (0.25 BB Rake) puan29 mucked and WON 5 BB (+3 BB NET) I know I totally botched this hand, but the clubs got me purplexed after the turn. I checked the flop because I didn't see the sense in betting since this table was full of calling stations, (I mean every hand went to the showdown, and most with 3 or 4 players still in it). I'm sure he just would have called and what info would that give me? (except perhaps a bigger pot if no more clubs come?) & would it tell me if he raised?(yeah I'm even more clueless in limit than NL, if that's possible). By the time the river came, did I have a choice? Is he going to bet without any club? What are the chances of him having the case King? I guess the pot odds said I shoulda called, but I figured if nothing else, I could use this newly enforced (I can fold a hand) image in the future. Is the right play in this case to RAISE RAISE RAISE all day and twice on Sunday? Now that I think about it, who says he had a high club? He could have been betting the turn in hopes to get me off a low flush draw when he made a weak flush already. Yeah I think it just came to me. I should of raised until my clicker finger hurt, right??? :banghead: __________________ Check out Bigloser's Blog: The Genesis of a Micro-Grinder... http://www.feltpoker.com/blogs/bigloser (updated 5/25/08 )

11-28-2007, 11:39 AM	#2 (permalink)
puckhead23 Grinder Join Date: May 2007 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 941	Re: Flopped set of Kings surrounded by Clubs!!! It is rarely a good idea to slowplay trips, especially with a FD on the board. You need to bet the flop here, and I think you know that based on your post-hand discussion. The worst thing that can happen to you is he folds, and you take down a small pot. As played, you've got to call the turn having outs to boat/quads. I think your fold is good given four clubs on board. __________________ "Seriously, even if you're not the most skilled player in the tournament, remember that Jamie Gold actually won a tournament" - Randy

11-28-2007, 10:05 PM	#8 (permalink)
sfustsh Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Rocking the micros Posts: 4,557	Re: Flopped set of Kings surrounded by Clubs!!! Cap flop, raise/call turn, call river. Never fold. __________________ Carrera: fuck you as just above it means big bet. so again fuck off

11-29-2007, 09:05 AM	#10 (permalink)
Mirage Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Raising donk bets Posts: 3,265	Re: Flopped set of Kings surrounded by Clubs!!! Well for starters, I'd... oh wait, limit. Nvm. :lol: __________________ My Blog - Updated July 27th! MewsicLovr: can you think of other poker tools that would be badass? Mirage: something that lets me see other ppl's holecards

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