Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG

LadyWrestler · 12-05-2007, 08:54 PM

Online $200 No-Limit Cash Game.

Villain is a good, very aggressive, LAG player
My image is TAG

1
2
3
4
5
6
D Villain ($320)
SB Me ($217)
BB

Deal
Me :Ah: :Ts:
6 folds.
Villain: calls $2
Me: completes to #2
BB: checks

Flop :8c: :Tc: :5d: (pot=$6)
Me (SB): bets $6
BB: folds
Villain(D): raises to $24
Me (SB): ?

johnny · 12-05-2007, 09:17 PM

I raise that to $9 pre flop. As played after the reraise I fold unless he's been donking up the table. We have less info because we didn't raise pre flop. With your hand in your position I give myself credit for 2nd pair because even if he didn't limp with premiums to trap we still hate a face card on the turn or river. Here's a hand I just played while writing this....

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
[url=http://www.leggopoker.com:3r20x3c8]LeggoPoker.com[/url:3r20x3c8] - [url=http://www.leggopoker.com/hh:3r20x3c8]Hand History Converter[/url:3r20x3c8]

BTN: $346.60
SB: $123.90
Hero (BB): $180
UTG: $163.60
UTG+1: $124.70
MP1: $283.50
MP2: $159.40
CO: $153

Pre-Flop: :Qh :Ad dealt to Hero (BB)
6 folds, SB raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, SB folds

Results: $8 Pot
Hero mucked :Qh :Ad and WON $8 (+$4 NET)

I hate playing AQ from the SB as much as I hate playing AT. Here I raised a little more because the button minraised which didn't tell me much of anything so I wanted to know right there which way he was fucking with me. Calling a limping button I'm either going to take as weakness or big strength but I'm not going to know which.

edit: something got funky in translation there, make me the SB in that hand and the minraiser as the button

sfustsh · 12-05-2007, 09:29 PM

I 3 bet, and go all in on a non club or jack turn.

Fold? Why?

Mirage · 12-05-2007, 09:41 PM

I don't think there's any value in a preflop raise from the sb there, personally.

Given your read I repot this right here. This is a wet board and his range is very wide. Reraise big (pot) and call a push.

Ugignadl · 12-06-2007, 12:29 AM

I don't mind limping or raising ATo from the SB, but really, it does influence the hand. If Johnny always raises ATo from the SB, and that is a very defensible move, then it is going to be hard for him to say what to do when that doesn't happen.

However limping is also a perfectly fine way to play ATo from the SB, you just have to know what you are doing (same as above), and you also have to know that it is significantly different to raising.

If I choose to limp ATo here (and I do that situationally) then I am not betting $6 on the flop, I'll bet $4.50 or $4 instead. Even without your read I'm not ready to fold to a raise on the flop. After his raise, I can look at his range and put in a more significant bet of 3x to 4x his raise. I like a raise to $80.

Now if he pushes, then the read comes in and I'll call all day with that. If he flat calls then we need to retool our range and then see the turn card. If it is not absolutely terrible (like say the :Qc:) then we are pushing the rest in.

Ugignadl · 12-06-2007, 12:32 AM

Oh, and if we are in a vaccuum and he pushes over our flop reraise we have a tough decision. I think with no reaise preflop you are going to have to call.

NeXtToNoTHiNG · 12-06-2007, 11:15 AM

I can't see how this is a good spot against a decent lag. I would fold it having played it the same as you up until now.

LadyWrestler · 12-06-2007, 05:28 PM

Thank you, all, for your comments and suggestions! It was good to read posts on this from good poker players, and definitely food for thought!

I folded. At the time, my thought process was rather simple:

1. I felt I had 5 outs for improving my hand.
2. He knows I am a tight player. Being a good, loose and aggressive player, I believed he would put me to a large bet decision on every future street. His flop raise sort of told me his intentions.
3. Future potential scare cards include: 4 jacks, 4 queens, 4 kings, 11 clubs; even the 4 nines have some, minor scare value.
4. From there I had to decide if I wanted to play in a large pot with a pair of tens (even still TPTK on the flop).
5. I decided I did not want to go to war with this hand. In a smallish pot, maybe. In a large pot, no.

Thank you, again for your answers. They certainly made me think. Much appreciated! :)

bigloser2448 · 12-07-2007, 09:07 AM

I would've raised preflop. This way the BB is likely gone & you're HU with the LAG, maybe (if he calls). I've found that LAGs sometimes don't want to mix it up with TAGs very much. There's usually enough money on the table for you to take turns taking everyone else's money.

Am I wrong here that the term LAG means Loose (where they play crappier starting hands)? Since you have a TAG image, he's not going to put you on AT, more like AA, AK, etc. A decent raise takes it right there, no? I don't see him re-raising, & if you hit a flop that AA, AK would benefit from, play poker.

LadyWrestler · 12-07-2007, 08:41 PM

Thank you for your advice, Big. :)

12-05-2007, 08:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
LadyWrestler Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 4,207	Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG Online $200 No-Limit Cash Game. Villain is a good, very aggressive, LAG player My image is TAG 1 2 3 4 5 6 D Villain ($320) SB Me ($217) BB Deal Me :Ah: :Ts: 6 folds. Villain: calls $2 Me: completes to #2 BB: checks Flop :8c: :Tc: :5d: (pot=$6) Me (SB): bets $6 BB: folds Villain(D): raises to $24 Me (SB): ?

12-05-2007, 09:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
johnny Picture Frame Ninja Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,108	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG I raise that to $9 pre flop. As played after the reraise I fold unless he's been donking up the table. We have less info because we didn't raise pre flop. With your hand in your position I give myself credit for 2nd pair because even if he didn't limp with premiums to trap we still hate a face card on the turn or river. Here's a hand I just played while writing this.... Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players [url=http://www.leggopoker.com:3r20x3c8]LeggoPoker.com[/url:3r20x3c8] - [url=http://www.leggopoker.com/hh:3r20x3c8]Hand History Converter[/url:3r20x3c8] BTN: $346.60 SB: $123.90 Hero (BB): $180 UTG: $163.60 UTG+1: $124.70 MP1: $283.50 MP2: $159.40 CO: $153 Pre-Flop: :Qh :Ad dealt to Hero (BB) 6 folds, SB raises to $4, Hero raises to $12, SB folds Results: $8 Pot Hero mucked :Qh :Ad and WON $8 (+$4 NET) I hate playing AQ from the SB as much as I hate playing AT. Here I raised a little more because the button minraised which didn't tell me much of anything so I wanted to know right there which way he was fucking with me. Calling a limping button I'm either going to take as weakness or big strength but I'm not going to know which. edit: something got funky in translation there, make me the SB in that hand and the minraiser as the button __________________ Blog Updated 6/21, Oooops, I'm goin to Vegas in a few days. 11:09:32 PM Randy: limit poker is easy 11:19:03 PM Randy: ok, i suck at teh limit Mirage: FU PKOER Mirage: F Mirage: U Mirage: FUFUFU Mirage: up a $1.45 still YES

12-05-2007, 09:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
sfustsh Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Rocking the micros Posts: 4,546	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG I 3 bet, and go all in on a non club or jack turn. Fold? Why? __________________ Carrera: fuck you as just above it means big bet. so again fuck off

12-05-2007, 09:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mirage Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: Raising donk bets Posts: 3,258	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG I don't think there's any value in a preflop raise from the sb there, personally. Given your read I repot this right here. This is a wet board and his range is very wide. Reraise big (pot) and call a push. __________________ My Blog - Updated July 27th! johnny: poker is hand johnny: park johnny: omg Mirage: lol johnny: difficult

12-06-2007, 12:29 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ugignadl Drunken Aussie Join Date: May 2007 Location: Aussieland Posts: 7,706	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG I don't mind limping or raising ATo from the SB, but really, it does influence the hand. If Johnny always raises ATo from the SB, and that is a very defensible move, then it is going to be hard for him to say what to do when that doesn't happen. However limping is also a perfectly fine way to play ATo from the SB, you just have to know what you are doing (same as above), and you also have to know that it is significantly different to raising. If I choose to limp ATo here (and I do that situationally) then I am not betting $6 on the flop, I'll bet $4.50 or $4 instead. Even without your read I'm not ready to fold to a raise on the flop. After his raise, I can look at his range and put in a more significant bet of 3x to 4x his raise. I like a raise to $80. Now if he pushes, then the read comes in and I'll call all day with that. If he flat calls then we need to retool our range and then see the turn card. If it is not absolutely terrible (like say the :Qc:) then we are pushing the rest in. __________________ I have been blogging. Last updated April 29th. http://www.feltpoker.com/blogs/ugignadl/

12-06-2007, 12:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ugignadl Drunken Aussie Join Date: May 2007 Location: Aussieland Posts: 7,706	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG Oh, and if we are in a vaccuum and he pushes over our flop reraise we have a tough decision. I think with no reaise preflop you are going to have to call. __________________ I have been blogging. Last updated April 29th. http://www.feltpoker.com/blogs/ugignadl/

12-06-2007, 11:15 AM	#7 (permalink)
NeXtToNoTHiNG Grinder Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: don't Posts: 596	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG I can't see how this is a good spot against a decent lag. I would fold it having played it the same as you up until now.

12-06-2007, 05:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
LadyWrestler Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 4,207	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG Thank you, all, for your comments and suggestions! It was good to read posts on this from good poker players, and definitely food for thought! I folded. At the time, my thought process was rather simple: 1. I felt I had 5 outs for improving my hand. 2. He knows I am a tight player. Being a good, loose and aggressive player, I believed he would put me to a large bet decision on every future street. His flop raise sort of told me his intentions. 3. Future potential scare cards include: 4 jacks, 4 queens, 4 kings, 11 clubs; even the 4 nines have some, minor scare value. 4. From there I had to decide if I wanted to play in a large pot with a pair of tens (even still TPTK on the flop). 5. I decided I did not want to go to war with this hand. In a smallish pot, maybe. In a large pot, no. Thank you, again for your answers. They certainly made me think. Much appreciated! :)

12-07-2007, 09:07 AM	#9 (permalink)
bigloser2448 Whale Hunter Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bakersfield Posts: 2,851	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG I would've raised preflop. This way the BB is likely gone & you're HU with the LAG, maybe (if he calls). I've found that LAGs sometimes don't want to mix it up with TAGs very much. There's usually enough money on the table for you to take turns taking everyone else's money. Am I wrong here that the term LAG means Loose (where they play crappier starting hands)? Since you have a TAG image, he's not going to put you on AT, more like AA, AK, etc. A decent raise takes it right there, no? I don't see him re-raising, & if you hit a flop that AA, AK would benefit from, play poker. __________________ Check out Bigloser's Blog: The Genesis of a Micro-Grinder... http://www.feltpoker.com/blogs/bigloser (updated 5/25/08 )

12-07-2007, 08:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
LadyWrestler Whale Hunter Join Date: May 2007 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 4,207	Re: Weak High Pair Facing Large Flop Raise From LAG Thank you for your advice, Big. :)

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