SnG's - Late Stage Hand Ranges/Misc

[mattgeer]

Thanks to BigL my SnG play has improved drasitically and I have been consistently cashing in them- (Thanks BigL!)

Right now I am playing $1.20 9 man SnGs with some $3.40's mixed in.

Now, since most of my mistakes have been aired out for me to work on , I have come across a couple others that I can use a bit of advice on.

My biggest issue I think is being too nitty with what hands I choose to play with when we get down to 4-5 players. Mostly this is due to fear of bubbling out.

So what hands should I play? To put how nitty I am into perspective (I think) one hand I played I was the big blind w/5 players left and so-so stack of $1,500 and the villian w/$1,800. I have A-J suited and it is folded to the button who pops it up to $425 total (blinds $75/$150).

Do I shove over the top? (I folded of course)

Also, in this specific game, one player was sitting out and blinding out quickly, so technically this was 4 handed and we were on the bubble.

Another hand, I had 7-A suited UTG with 4 players left.

Raise? (I folded)

Now, BigL told me to stop worrying so much about the bubble because you don't just want to cash, you want to win. --> I agree, but the issue Im having is really pinpointing profitable hands. Also keep in mind many of these players seem to have no concept of hand ranges and I witnessed players calling shoves when they bricked the flop. So, it's very difficult to put them on anything.

There are plenty more hands like this. What seems to happen to me most times (and maybe this is common SnG?) but generally I fold 98% of my hands until there is 5 left or so and I still have close to my starting stack (most times) and have to resort to shoving...which works well btw, but when Im not the first to shove/raise....thats where the dilema occurs. I just want to make sure im set up w/a chip stack instead of always feeling short (if possible)

Thoughts, Suggestions?

My other issue comes down to my bankroll. Now, to put this simply, I don't want to have to deposit again. After a few years of playing and countless dollars spent because I tilt or donk of money, its time to crack down and grind a bankroll.

Having said that, I have $55 in my acct now. My issue here is that the $3.40 games are just as soft it seems as the $1.20 games (if not more so). I've only played 3 so far but have cashed in all...I realize its not a substantial sample size.....

So, I've heard 50x buy in is ideal...is it worth the risk in anyone's opinion to play the $3.40 games?

I also play 2 tables at once (3-4 if they are all $1.20 games) and play one $1.20 while playing one $3.40 game. They are identical games except the buy in. Is it a bad idea to mix games like this?

Any thoughts on any of this would help, even if you don't play SnGs... My goals would be a part time player eventually as side income to my websites (of course full time would be cool too) and will try any piece of solid advice.

Thanks in advance for all advice and sorry for the lengthy post..thought some of this stuff would get over looked if in separate threads. Also had couple hands to show in the replayer instead of explaining them..but stars doesn't seem to put a hand ## next to their HH they send to my folder...

[bigloser2448]

Obviously I'll have a lot to say about this stuff, but I'd like to give some others a chance to chime in 1st. I think it's good to get a bunch of different perspectives on things. Plus, I'm not nearly as confident in my STT SnG's as I am in my 18-Mans, so... I'll be back.

[kevbar13]

Originally Posted by mattgeer

My biggest issue I think is being too nitty with what hands I choose to play with when we get down to 4-5 players. Mostly this is due to fear of bubbling out.

So what hands should I play? To put how nitty I am into perspective (I think) one hand I played I was the big blind w/5 players left and so-so stack of $1,500 and the villian w/$1,800. I have A-J suited and it is folded to the button who pops it up to $425 total (blinds $75/$150).

Do I shove over the top? (I folded of course)

Also, in this specific game, one player was sitting out and blinding out quickly, so technically this was 4 handed and we were on the bubble.

Another hand, I had 7-A suited UTG with 4 players left.

Raise? (I folded)

There is a lot more to SNG's than what hand to push with. It is a combination of different aspects. You need to especially take into consideration stack size and any reads or observations you have noticed. For the AJ hand, I would like to at least have an idea whether the button is raising a lot of hands, stealing a lot or is the player playing sort of tight. While you are getting a little short, AJ can be folded and can be pushed depending on the situation. For the love of God, do not call in that situation. Same with the A7 suited hand, more information is needed but A7 can be a push and can be a fold.

Originally Posted by mattgeer

Now, BigL told me to stop worrying so much about the bubble because you don't just want to cash, you want to win. --> I agree, but the issue Im having is really pinpointing profitable hands. Also keep in mind many of these players seem to have no concept of hand ranges and I witnessed players calling shoves when they bricked the flop. So, it's very difficult to put them on anything.

This is a common misconception and one I used to share. You don't play to win, you play to make money. Your first worry should be making the money and then playing to win once in the money.

Originally Posted by mattgeer

My other issue comes down to my bankroll. Now, to put this simply, I don't want to have to deposit again. After a few years of playing and countless dollars spent because I tilt or donk of money, its time to crack down and grind a bankroll.

Having said that, I have $55 in my acct now. My issue here is that the $3.40 games are just as soft it seems as the $1.20 games (if not more so). I've only played 3 so far but have cashed in all...I realize its not a substantial sample size.....

So, I've heard 50x buy in is ideal...is it worth the risk in anyone's opinion to play the $3.40 games?

I also play 2 tables at once (3-4 if they are all $1.20 games) and play one $1.20 while playing one $3.40 game. They are identical games except the buy in. Is it a bad idea to mix games like this?

If you do not want to deposit again, stick with the $1.20's. 16 buy-ins is not nearly enough to feel comfortable to not go bust. Grind the $1.20's up to about $170-$180 and start mixing in some $3.40's. There is no problem with mixing in higher buy-ins, I actually think it helps, especially when you are thinking about the money. If you are multi-tabling, you are less likely to worry about the buy-in since you have other things to worry about. When you get above like $250ish I would say you could move up more comfortably. Also, as you get to the higher buy-ins, you are going to want closer to 100 buyins to feel comfortable.

Best thing you can do is post hands and ask questions. What I usually did was have notepad open while I was playing and copy and paste any hands to post and ask questions about later.

[mattgeer]

Thanks for the reply.

I should've been more specific in a few of my notes. Im not so concerned with what to push with as im more worried about not having to play each SnG as a pushing match.

So, Im wondering how much to widen my starting hand range when it gets down to 4-5 players to try and accumulate a stack to not only make it into the money, but have a fighting chance when the bubble does burst.

As far as what you mentioned needing to know what is going on, I agree. The only issue that I have consistently found is that many players are good at being tight and seem very solid, then all of a sudden they make these donk shoves, bets, etc..with absolute garbage. So trying to put them on a range is difficult enough, let alone knowing if im ever good.

I agree about the raise or fold. As you will notice I did mention that I folded both times. After talking with BigL, I generally do not call much at all, if at all, and actually have a standard for raising now....which i didnt much before.

And the bankroll..yea, definitely...I will just focus on $1.20's for now with very few $3.40 mixed in (maybe every $10-$20 increase in bankroll?)

Sorry about all the text instead of hand histories.... As I mentioned in my OP I had hand histories #'s but when I went to look for them in my HH folder, I found that Stars does not use hand numbers in their HH's.


Keep the suggestions coming guys!

[bigloser2448]

Originally Posted by kevbar13

This is a common misconception and one I used to share. You don't play to win, you play to make money. Your first worry should be making the money and then playing to win once in the money.

With all due respect. I completely disagree. In Turbo SnG's playing to 1st get in the money and then go for the win will turn you into a folding machine instead of a pushing machine. Any profitable SnG Player will tell you that you need to pwn the bubble in order to do make a good profit at these things.

Matt's quote perhaps was taken a little out of context, so I'll explain further...
What I mean to say is, when you're on the bubble you need to push whenever is is mathematically correct to do so. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of SnG Players do not push wide enough.

On the other side of the coin, there's the gap theory where you can mathematically push much wider than you should mathematically call. So one thing I want to make perfectly clear is, don't take chances by calling when on the bubble. There are often times when folding AK on the bubble is the right move when you're pushed on. If UTG is supershortacked and you're in the Big Blind & get pushed on by someone who has you covered, you should almost never call unless you have Aces or Kings (and even with Kings I'll cringe and close my eyes if I call).

So to make a long story short, I say you should always play to win, not just beat the bubble. But do so when you're the pusher, not the caller. Otherwise, you'll wind up with more than your fair share of 3rd and 4th instead of 1sts and 2nds.

[mattgeer]

Originally Posted by bigloser2448

With all due respect. I completely disagree. In Turbo SnG's playing to 1st get in the money and then go for the win will turn you into a folding machine instead of a pushing machine. Any profitable SnG Player will tell you that you need to pwn the bubble in order to do make a good profit at these things.

Matt's quote perhaps was taken a little out of context, so I'll explain further...

I probably shouldn't have brought anyone's name into this, especially if I couldn't explain this as well as needed. Sorry

Originally Posted by bigloser2448

What I mean to say is, when you're on the bubble you need to push whenever is is mathematically correct to do so. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of SnG Players do not push wide enough.

On the other side of the coin, there's the gap theory where you can mathematically push much wider than you should mathematically call. So one thing I want to make perfectly clear is, don't take chances by calling when on the bubble. There are often times when folding AK on the bubble is the right move when you're pushed on. If UTG is supershortacked and you're in the Big Blind & get pushed on by someone who has you covered, you should almost never call unless you have Aces or Kings (and even with Kings I'll cringe and close my eyes if I call).

So to make a long story short, I say you should always play to win, not just beat the bubble. But do so when you're the pusher, not the caller. Otherwise, you'll wind up with more than your fair share of 3rd and 4th instead of 1sts and 2nds.

I do the same thing in terms of pushing, I will only be the shover and not the caller..simply because of the gap concept.

After playing much tighter and making it to the final 5 or so, I would like to find a hand range that allows me to accumulate chips as opposed to having to push with a 1,200 chip stack when the blinds reach 50/100 and 75/150. I don't mind pushing and it works...but most times you double up and become an average stack...then you still have to play tight on the bubble as opposed to being a bigger stack and being more aggressive.

So Im assuming Im being too nity? Like my example above. Button raises it about 2.5x-3x BB....I had a decent stack and probably could've 3-bet him...but up against a pair im probably what, 45% to win (not accurate, just a guess) and anything else im racing...spots like this where my hand is strong but im also on the bubble....what do i do?

Im just wondering if I should open up more or if Im fine.....and maybe i can improve in other areas....

As long as Im not crucified and completely torn to shreds (leave some of me intact) I can post a hand history for a game or two...let everyone tear it apart

Sound like an idea?

[Carrera]

I'm probably the table mix up king

I usually play on four different sites, playing different games (NLHE, PLO, PL8, sometimes stud) on each for different stakes

[Peepers]

I think by the time you get to 4 or 5 handed you're going to have figure out who is capable of stealing blinds, raising with less than premium cards and who the TOTAL NIT at the table is.

let's say you have AJ in the BB versus a button raise from guy who is raising 20 to 30% of his hands. At this point, i insta-shove! oh you'd better beleive it. Now let's say the button raiser is the NIT at the table who got to this point by folding, well then AJ goes into the muck faster than the blink of an eye.

4 or 5 handed with A7 UTG, i htink that depends on alot of things. you're in the blinds next, how badly do you need chips going into the blinds? Are you shortstacked? if so, you shove with A7. If you're medium stacked and can make it thru those blinds just fine......insta-fold. If you're big stacked, i might raise if i know the blinds are right will give up easily. an UTG raise gets ALOT of respect. And since you're big stakced, if someone shoves over the top you can easily fold and be fine...

BigL what do you think of my advice? lol

it's allll about reads and stacks my friend, you're cards don't matter much

[mattgeer]

Originally Posted by Peepers

I think by the time you get to 4 or 5 handed you're going to have figure out who is capable of stealing blinds, raising with less than premium cards and who the TOTAL NIT at the table is.

let's say you have AJ in the BB versus a button raise from guy who is raising 20 to 30% of his hands. At this point, i insta-shove! oh you'd better beleive it. Now let's say the button raiser is the NIT at the table who got to this point by folding, well then AJ goes into the muck faster than the blink of an eye.

4 or 5 handed with A7 UTG, i htink that depends on alot of things. you're in the blinds next, how badly do you need chips going into the blinds? Are you shortstacked? if so, you shove with A7. If you're medium stacked and can make it thru those blinds just fine......insta-fold. If you're big stacked, i might raise if i know the blinds are right will give up easily. an UTG raise gets ALOT of respect. And since you're big stakced, if someone shoves over the top you can easily fold and be fine...

BigL what do you think of my advice? lol

it's allll about reads and stacks my friend, you're cards don't matter much

Im waiting for him add $.02 to this as well.

It is definitely about reads, I agree.

Most of this may be just a lack of experience. Not so much paying attention to players, but Im new to playing multiple tables and I have my HUD set-up and no idea what the f**k everything means. (I do know what it means when im setting it up, but of course when i just have the HUD up i dunno where everything is/what it means..if that makes sense)

Also, some players at $1.20/$3.40 know how to stay tight up to 5 handed/bubble play...but then on several occasions these players who seem solid are calling all ins on a flop they bricked against a short stack..maybe they think they missed too...dunno...but just some weird shit...so, almost difficult to really get a solid range of hands...

I suppose at the same time, my image is very tight aggressive...if Im playing a hand at any time it is raised and c-betted always on the flop -unless im in position, missed the flop and am betted into by the oop player.

So, that probably buys me a bit more leeway as well...dunno, it's possible im overthinking it some....just seems like 90% of the SnGs i play end up with me on the bubble or 5 handed shoving to stay alive..it works and normally allows me to coast into the money..but not always with a big enough stack to be aggressive..

Thanks for the replies guys....but keep them coming..more, more, more

[hiho]

I would try to move to the 3.40s as soon as possible. That rake at the 1.20s is a killer.