I'm coming across a fork in the road...

[Mirage]

I did go through the trouble for you, although I thought it would be kind of neat to see it anyway and remember how far I've come from that low point, which is where I almost decided to quit, really. I identify with your plight.

I have been putting off finishing school to be a stay-at-home for the last few years because we couldn't afford to put 2 small children in daycare and pay for school-related expenses. When we had our smallest, my wife had a good, solid, full time job, I was going to school full time, and supplementing income by playing in local cover bands on Friday/Saturday nights (I play guitar and sing.) I didn't go out and get a day job because after daycare and gas, I'd barely be supplementing our income at all, at least not enough to make it worthwhile to give my boys to someone else to raise every day. At first I spent my ample spare time playing video games, then I started playing online because my father-in-law turned me on to it and I was immediately hooked.

I didn't start out trying to supplement income, but success in poker and making money are one and the same. For the first year or so I slowly but surely built my bankroll; I played limit cash, nlhe sngs, nlhe mtts, and finally nlhe cash. My main problem was that I thought I was better than I was and chalked everything up to variance. I was ok at being a nit when things were going well but all it would take to tilt me was a couple of coolers and suddenly I was a huge station. I had an epiphany in April of last year and decided to take it seriously - you can read more about that on this blog post - Welcome | Mirage .

Anyway, it is possible to do this if you get serious about identifying your weaknesses both inside the game of poker and psychologically and fixing them. You also have to make a reasonable plan and stick to it strictly. However, it helps to have some experience under your belt and a 1k bankroll to start with, as I had the benefit of. If you want to try to grind it up and you are only rolled for 10nl, it will be a long road, as Ugi mentioned, as I can't imagine that you would have extra money lying about to invest in this if you are looking for ways to supplement your income to begin with.

My older boy is going into Kindergarten this year, so I will be able to go back to school again in the fall. What's nice about poker is that I make my own hours, and I only play 20 a week as is, so it's doubtful my play time will go down; I'll get to continue to supplement our income with it. When I have my BA in 2 years I'll get a real job and if I'm still playing, I can go back to doing it for mostly recreation and be a bit more aggressive with my bankroll if I so choose. For all I know, online poker could suck or I could be really burned out by that time, but hopefully it will continue to be a solid money maker for me in the meanwhile.

[Randy]

Great post Mirage!

[Snickers99]

Sorta sounds like me, at a crossroad, but for different reasons. I hardly play now...2 whole hours the entire month of June. But your situation is much different as you are trying to use poker as extra income. That was my plan too, but it became apparent I would need a lot of help and haven't made that big decision/commitment to give it my all.

I think the big thing here is you feel like you HAVE to win, because your family needs the money. Whether you admit it or not, that has to affect your poker decisions while playing. I don't think you are in the correct position to rely on poker as a second income right now. You haven't been playing long and you're not properly rolled to move up to where you can make enough money to make a difference in your life. Sorry to say, but you might have to go for the second job and squeeze in poker when you can...but when you do play, continue to learn. See if you can put away just a little of the second job income towards poker and maybe take some shots here and there when your bankroll builds.

Personally, I've totally changed gears and now treat it as a hobby...hardly playing online anymore, but still planning vacations around playing live poker.

[Mirage]

Good points Snicks. The only pressure I had on myself when I decided to start taking poker seriously was internal; I had nothing to lose. Your (BigL's) position is somewhat different because you are feeling pressure to find another source of income, so your opportunity cost (not getting part-time work and the associated income) is greater.

I won't pretend to know what is best for you, but hopefully my personal insight and experience helps inform your decision.

[bigloser2448]

Wow. There's some great conversation and honest opinions. Although I appreciate the confidence Sevens has in my abilities, I may not be as confident that I have the skills needed to start making real money just yet. And from the sounds of it, those of you who have been able to turn this poker thing into a money maker have paid many more dues than I.

That said... I'm still a little torn. As for bankroll, I think I have about $500 lined up that I can deposit in the fall that will not hurt me if I lose. If I do decide to do this, I wouldn't need to immediately show my $20-30/hour winrate goal, obviously. I'd surely settle for hardly any profit at all in the beginning as long as I felt that I was on the right track for future success. Not to put any specific deadlines on anything, but if I couldn't start seeing some half-way decent profit by the time the holidays are here and gone, I'll probably have my answer.

Oh, yeah.. Ugi, that book reference that you took offense to may be slightly out of context in my post (although not much I think). In fairness to the author (as if he's ever going to read this ) I think I'll post his blurb on it verbatim in the book club section when I get a chance and we can discuss that separately.

I'd love to hear from some of the other forum regulars on this topic of playing poker for profit and/or a "second job". I'm sure there have to be some strong feelings on the subject out there?

[Snickers99]

I don't think you can judge your poker skills on such a short time span. Deposit in Fall, want top notch results by the holidays? I think you're setting yourself up. Either you'll hit a good streak (and wrongly think "hey, I'm doing it!"), a bad streak (and wrongly think "man I suck...fuck this shit"), or break even. I mean, what are we talking? September to December? 2 to 3 hours a night?

Like Mirage said, I don't want to tell you what to do as you know your situation the best. But this plan seems like it will just add to the pressure. From what I can tell, you've come a long way. But you seem to be rushing to get to that next "money making" level. And I understand why, I just don't know if it's wise.

[MewsicLovr]

So basically, I stand by what I said.

[bigloser2448]

Originally Posted by Snickers99

I don't think you can judge your poker skills on such a short time span. Deposit in Fall, want top notch results by the holidays? I think you're setting yourself up. Either you'll hit a good streak (and wrongly think "hey, I'm doing it!"), a bad streak (and wrongly think "man I suck...fuck this shit"), or break even. I mean, what are we talking? September to December? 2 to 3 hours a night?

Like Mirage said, I don't want to tell you what to do as you know your situation the best. But this plan seems like it will just add to the pressure. From what I can tell, you've come a long way. But you seem to be rushing to get to that next "money making" level. And I understand why, I just don't know if it's wise.

You make some really good points here Snickers, Although I never said "top notch results", I see your point that just a few months won't be enough time to make any valid determinations.

If I decided not to make any decisions on this based on all your really honest and valuable advice.

Thanks guys... ...for confusing the hell out of me, that is.

[SPAM]

1. In my opinion, it is very unlikely that you can make $20 to $30 an hour playing poker. I get the impression that you are a pretty good player, and your results are very good for your experience level. However, players are better today than they were, and you would have to have a bankroll and improve substantially to move to the higher stakes required. Heck I don't know if I could ever make $10 an hour multi tabling.

2. From your previous posts it appears that you do enjoy MTTs. I think your best bet is to deposit $100 or so on pokerstars, and play the $3.25 5 table MTTs. They were real easy about one year ago when I played them, and a lot of very passive players. You get 33 entries if for $100. If you lose them all, you gain experience, and you might do well. There will be more variance than SNGs and ring games. But in my opinion, don't think about it or analyze it, just do it.

3. My sense is that you are not going to get a big charge out of playing $.02/$.05, or $.05/$.10 poker. Are you good enough now to do better than break even at $.10/$.25? I don't know, maybe with a decent bankroll, and I would predict if you are approximately breakeven at that level now, that you will probably improve.

4. I suggest shooting for $10 an hour as a future goal. If you like poker and play it part time, largely for fun, $10 and hour is not terrible

5. Decide which you prefer, ring games, or tournaments, and pick one type for now. Play smaller stakes for MTTs ,as variance can be very high.

6. It is not a major decision. Just decide what you want to do in poker, and do it.without obsessing about it. If you have doctor bills or a major expense that costs several hundred dollars or more, you will take care of it. Your decision of whether to invest a little imoney should be a very minor decision. Just decide in your mind what you want to do, and go for it.

7. Say you win some money and build up to $300 or $500. You must keep the money in your poker accounts to have any chance to move up and advance. If you withdraw money with a small bankroll, you will in effect be starting over at the beginning. Your poker account is really not liquid. If you withdraw funds from a small account, you cripple the account, and greatly reduce your chances of winning.

8. It appears to me that you do enjoy poker, although you may not enjoy playing for very small stakes such as $.02/$05 NL.

[bigloser2448]

Pretty spot on analysis SPAM! nh. And you brought up a good point about game selection. Although my previous posts in this thread may have sounded like I was leaning towards mutli-tabling cash games, I was trying to leave that decision, well, out of this decision for now. I did mention several options in my original post incuding multi-tabling SnGs. Honestly, I think I'd like doing that more than multi-tabling cash games. I think I definately feel more in my element in tournaments (over cash games) & it doesn't seem to matter what kind. I guess it's the fact that everyone, for that given tournament, is on level ground at the beginning; where in cash games, the bankroll backing up any given player can very drastically and therefore affect the way the game plays out (not to mention the fact that nobody really knows how much any given player has to back it up unless you happen to know the player). Good cash players look at that as a huge advantage I know, but I've found that I don't play my best cash game with a large or small bankroll to back up the buy-in for different reasons. If I have say 20+ buyins, I find myself playing too wreckless. If I have say >10 buyins, I find myself playing scared. This mindset doesn't seem to affect me as much when I'm in a SnG or an MTT. I'm in each and every one to win & I don't generally care how many more buyins I have to fire another one up.

I just realized that I brought up the whole SnG option without saying that I know multi-tabling SnGs can be a very stressfull endeavor. I've read here and elsewhere how even good players can go for long losing or breakeven stretches without making anything at all.

I dunno. I know I'm making this into a much larger decision than it should be as you've indicated. I guess the reason for that is the point that I brought up in my original post. I don't want this to turn into another golf. I LOVED playing golf when I was young. When I got slightly older, I realized that I wasn't going to make any money at it and put my clubs away mostly until my senior years when the kids are gone and the wife and I need time away from each other. The major difference between Golf and Poker, is I think I CAN make money at Poker, albeit maybe not as much as I think, but as Mirage pointed out, at least it doesn't cost me money; and regardless of which way I go with this, that's something I never thought even remotely possible.